Tuesday, June 29, 2004

On Liberty

J.S. Mill is famous for setting the limits of individual liberty through his harm principle: "the only purpose for which power may be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant".

Mill distinguished between 'other-regarding' actions, which fall within the public sphere of potential state interference, and 'self-regarding' actions, which fall within the private sphere and is no business of anyone else. The difficulty is defining where to draw the line, for it is clear that everything we do affects others in some (perhaps indirect) way. The decisive factor for Mill is not whether we merely affect others (for we always do), but rather, whether our actions affect the objective interests of anyone else. This appeal to objectivity mirrors Bentham's characterization of pleasure and pain as "real entities", rather than the purely subjective judgments of people (this move being necessary to exclude people's "offense" at others' opinions to count in the utilitarian calculus). For Mill, an objective interest was long term, observable to outsiders, and concerned with the relationship between means and ends. To thwart a fickle or arbitrary desire, then, would not count as a genuine 'harm'.

Still, it seems possible that one might have a long-term 'interest' which nevertheless does not justify impinging upon the liberty of others. A businessman, for example, would be right to consider the new competition down the road to be against his interests. Nevertheless, it is not a harm which he has any right to prevent. Mill suggested that a genuine harm involves the violation of "certain interests which... ought to be considered as rights". It must be emphasised that this is not an appeal to anything as absurd as natural rights, but rather, is simply an extension of utilitarianism.

Mill was a Rule Utilitarian. Rather than judging the morality of acts directly against the utility principle (the greatest happiness for the greatest number), he opted for a more subtle, indirect approach. Mill thought acts should be assessed against a set of secondary principles (or rules) which are in turn derived from the ultimate principle of utility. He recognised that if everyone tried to maximise happiness, with no concern for human rights or justice, the inevitable result would be much unhappiness. An indirect approach is much better: identify those general rules which would (if universally followed) tend to maximise utility, and get people to follow those rules instead. This, then, is what he meant by 'rights' - those "certain interests" whose protection would help maximise the general happiness. (Clearly, immunity from competition would not thus qualify!)

This raises the question of whether granting so much liberty would actually serve to maximise utility. Mill focused on two aspects in particular, freedom of speech, and freedom of action.

Freedom of Speech:
He advocated nearly limitless freedom of speech. Censorship, he argued, assumes infallibility - which history demonstrates is often mistaken. Furthermore, even if we suppose that the view of your opponents is false, Mill argued that society is still better off not to suppress it. This is because such challenges will help us to think critically and re-affirm/strengthen the foundations of our own ideas, avoiding their degradation into "a dead dogma". Mill pointed out that "He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that".

This argument is based on a sort of conceptual Darwinism: the conviction that in a 'free market of ideas', the best will come to the fore and survive. Some argue for censorship not because an idea is false, but because they say it will be harmful to society (atheism is a common target here). However, as Mill points out, this too assumes infallibility - the question of whether any specific view is helpful or harmful to society, is itself a proposition which might be true or false, and so, as argued above, should be open to debate: "the assumption of infallibility is merely shifted... The usefulness of an opinion is itself a matter of opinion".

There are some limits to free speech however. Mill was sensitive to the modern idea of a 'speech act' (that speech is action, and should be treated as such). If a man gives an inflammatory speech rousing a mob to violence, then he has clearly violated the harm principle. But as always, it is far from clear where to draw the line, and Mill tends to err on the side of liberty.

Freedom of Action:
It might seem that the harm principle is a flagrant violation of utilitarianism, for we can easily think of cases when the general happiness could be best served by paternalistically imposing our will on others 'for their own good' (e.g. limiting the availability of harmful drugs). So Mill's insistence that "his own good... is not sufficient warrant" (for intervention) will require some justification.

The crucial matter here is the way in which Mill's utilitarianism varies from Bentham's. As already discussed, he was a Rule, not Act, utilitarian. But he also went further, and made qualitative (not merely quantitative) distinctions about utility. That is, he considered some pleasures to be intrinsically better than others - better to be a discontented man than a happy pig, and all that. In a crucial passage at the start of On Liberty, Mill tells us: "I regard utility as the ultimate appeal on all ethical questions; but it must be utility in the largest sense, grounded on the permanent interests of man as a progressive being" (emphasis added). This can help us to understand how he came to the conclusion that a rule in favour of much personal liberty would tend to maximise utility.

Freedom, Mill thought, was beneficial both to individual and to society. Society would benefit from getting to observe various different "experiments of living". The diversity which results from freedom is the only sure way to guarantee long-term progress in society, as people can observe and learn from each other, in a semi-Darwinian process of trial & error.

From an individual's perspective, freedom is necessary to develop their individuality as a human being - an essential feature, for Mill, of a good (high-utility) life. To this, James Fitzjames Stephen objected that Mill was simply mistaken: people are lazy creatures, and given a choice they will tend to choose idleness and passivity. Their personal qualities and individuality could be better furthered by forcing people into activities which they otherwise wouldn't bother with.

Mill anticipated this objection, and rebutted it by appealing to the 'best judge' view, i.e. individuals are the best judges of what is best for them. Here Mill appeals to Bentham's notion of individuals having privileged information about what makes them happy. He also goes further, pointing out that individuals are the most motivated to look out for their own interests. So although there might be rare occasions when paternalism would indeed have the best results, in the vast majority of cases it would prove mistaken. As a general rule, we ought to respect individual liberty, for that is what will tend, overall, to maximise utility.

Exceptions:
Being based on the principle of utility, Mill recognises that freedom should not be granted to those who are incapable of benefiting from it. So paternalism is well justified (indeed, morally required!) in the case of children and "barbarians". However, we should aim to impart to them the skills and knowledge necessary to become free agents in their own right.

Conclusion:
Mill aimed to justify a limited sphere of personal liberty of action, and an almost limitless freedom of expression. His utilitarian justification focused on the benefits of individual spontaneity, both to the individual and society at large. It is to be valued for expressing the highest in human life itself (the qualitatively 'best' pleasures), and for promoting the development of civilization.

15 comments:

Jason G.L. Chu said...

Excellent summary of Millian themes. A more proscriptive bent to your discussion would have been interesting, but your entry serves as a good general overview of Mill's work on Liberty; noting that his Liberty of the Will is tied to Utilitarianism, not Natural Rights, is a good point.
Thanks :)

Genius said...

From the other thread.
I think you are misunderstanding the sort of totalitarianism i am proposing.
First you seem to be defending the "right" as opposed to "left" version of liberty (to use your previous argument).
Every time I make a decision to maximise utility I will reduce your current freedom but improve the total freedom and happyness etc in the system. there will be hardly a single system in the universe in which there is not some rule that I can apply to improve it.
This means that utilitarianism implies somthing rather like big brother.
You dont agree???
1) In history totalitarianism usually goes wrong but we have not had the systems required to keep it under control, but one day we will, one day fairly soon I think.
2) If I was the totalitarian I can hardly assume I would be evil (I can guarantee I wouldn't be). Although you seem to suggest that that is exactly what I must assume.

It is rather like being a leftist doesnt mean you have to support communism being a authoritarian doesnt mean you need to support Hitler (who's motives were rather different I note).

Richard said...

Both types of liberty are important.

All the evidence suggests that totalitarianism does not promote utility. If a totalitarian were given absolute power, then it's most likely that we would all suffer greatly in result. Thus utilitarianism tells us not to try to be totalitarians. We're just not perfect enough, and if you think you are, you're deluded.

For starters, there is the old "power corrupts" problem. And then there are the arguments I outline in the post above (and which you have not responded to), namely, that individuals are both (1) more motivated to look out for their own interests; and (2) usually in a better position to know what those interests are.

Thus even a well-meaning totalitarian would likely fuck things up. Anyone who thinks they always know what's best for the world, is probably so self-deluded that they do not recognize their own failings. I'm sure Hitler and Stalin meant well, after all.

Genius said...

reading what you said about Mills,
1) he is a rule utilitarian - an inferior form, by definition of course, although pure utilitarianism might end up looking very similar in practice.
2) he quickly lowers the argument from the point of view of an individual in order to explain the lack of information problem. But this is nonsense because he is planning on defining societal rules.
I suggest you should never go to that level of analysis - utility maximization is for the macro level and individuals are "utility maximised". It is irrelivant whether they are utilitarians or not since utilitarianism is ONLY about utility maximization not Philosophical "rightness"!
If an individual wants to utility maximise he can try the strategy his information suggests is correct - but that is a bit irrelevant to our main discussion.

freedom of speach:
Now we look at the fallibility of censors and so forth - what he really means is bias. fallibility is not a problem IF you are right more often than you are wrong. That is the utilitarian way and he is spiting in its face.
BIAS is a problem but htat is somthing to be delt with with systems - take the human element out.

> Mill argued that society is still better off not to suppress it.

If so then a utilitarian government WILL NOT supress it so his argument is beside the point. sure a utilitarian government shouldnt murder people randomly but that is hardly an argument about stopping utilitarian governments from taking actions that might kill poeple. Again he is attacking the foundation of utilitarianism.

> Freedom of Action:

"Society would benefit from getting to observe various different "experiments of living"."

errr evil things come to mind here... not utilitarian ones..

> The diversity which results from freedom is the only sure way to guarantee long-term progress in society

Not only - that is jsut stupid - but "a good way" yes however its still irritating... the utilitarian government takes this all into account why is he so eager to assume rampant stupidity?

> i.e. individuals are the best judges of what is best for them.

In such cases we will not impose on them - but everyone can see that that is not ALWAYS the case. I can tell sticking a finger in a electric socket is a bad idea, I dont need to be inside their head to tell that (except for someone who is counter productive to society). Most things fall under that catagory. Again it is ridiculous to assume hte government is either stupid or evil when it is an ideal government and technology weill help with this analysis anyway.

> individuals are the most motivated to look out for their own interests.

again - sometimes.

> So although there might be rare occasions when paternalism would indeed have the best results, in the vast majority of cases it would prove mistaken.

1) I disagree
2) even if that was the case controling 1% of things would be a VASTLY more big brotherish society than we have AND it requires the appropriate information gathering INFACT proper rule utilitarianism requires that information gathering also.

Genius said...

On a side note I think it is funny how in philosophy someone thinks up an idea and then they become the bible on how it should be understood.

A reference to a person who said somthing long ago should be considered a weak reference i nthat their ideas were probably rather off hte cuff and should - if there is progress - have been superseeded in parts.

What matters is pieces of logic.

Genius said...

> All the evidence suggests that totalitarianism does not promote utility.

1) what evidence? If you mean it has failed in the past - only to a small extent. I could just as easily say freedom has failed. Even classic examples of totalitarianism like Soviet russia didnt fail all that bad compared to being left as they were or worse yet "freedom" (as in anarchy).
2) It MUST when performed correctly I thought I explained that but if not I will try again.

> If a totalitarian were given absolute power, then it's most likely that we would all suffer greatly in result.

Yes, that doesnt mean you should oppose it. For example if a lets say random canadian became prime minister in NZ we would probably suffer greatly but I dont oppose canadian men being president.

Just because it can be done wrong or is likely to be done wrong is no jsutification for believing it MUST be done wrong.

> Thus utilitarianism tells us not to try to be totalitarians.

Er.. I explained with much stronger logic (building from basic principles) the exact opposite.

> We're just not perfect enough.

again you dont have to be perfect you jsut have to be "better" and you dont have to answer all problems you just have to answer some. I think I am jsut telling you the natural conclusion of your own system if you put it into practice. You would slowly improve each system as the information became available and one day you would wake up and go - gosh its looking a bit big brotherish here. BUT in your defense it would be a fairly nice place to live with lots of utility.

> For starters, there is the old "power corrupts" problem.

as i said the problem here is bias not power or fallibility. I Propose a government that is either "non human" or human but so tightly controlled that corruption is impossible. this is possible and will only become MORE possible so that argument can be dealt with.

> Anyone who thinks they always know what's best for the world, is probably so self-deluded that they do not recognize their own failings.

Haha the same could be said about any utilitarian or moral philosopher of any code (except maybe libiterian anarchists).

Richard said...

You are assuming that the totalitarian government would somehow be magically omniscient. This is not plausible. In any real life situation, a totalitarian government is extremely likely to fail to live up to the utilitarian ideal. You cannot just assume that they will more often be right than wrong. In neglecting these practical problems, you confuse your ethical reasoning, failing to note that utilitarianism recommends doing what will in practice have the best consequences. And, in reality, that means not trying to act like a utilitarianism. See my new post here for a full explanation.

"utilitarianism is ONLY about utility maximization not Philosophical 'rightness'!"

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Utilitarianism just is the claim that the right action is the one that maximizes utility. That's the definition. So your claim seems simply incoherent.

"On a side note I think it is funny how in philosophy someone thinks up an idea and then they become the bible on how it should be understood."

Absurd comments like that would make one wonder whether you've actually ever done any philosophy. Of course ideas progress. But it's still worth learning from those who have gone before us. Otherwise you are likely to make the same old mistakes that someone refuted centuries ago.

I discuss J.S. Mill not because he is a Bible-like "authority", but because he was extremely intelligent and insightful, and had powerful arguments and good ideas. To neglect the great philosophers, and exult in doing so, is merely to wallow in one's own ignorance.

Genius said...

> You are assuming that the totalitarian government would somehow be magically omniscient.

I think
1) you missed the point on fallibility - the government doesnt ahve to ALWAYS be right it just has to be more often right than leaving the system to its own devices.
You are again sounding dangerously like a libiterian.
I am not proposing hte government control everything (but even the most rabid totalitarian doesn't propose that anyway), I am proposing htey control anything where they can expect to add utility that will be a hell of a lot of things.
2) technology will assist in this - I admit it is much less plausible now than it will be in 50 years.

> You cannot just assume that they will more often be right than wrong.

that is rather like saying "you cannot jsut asume a democratic government will have elections".
Well I would not "just assume" you would OBVIOUSLY have to have very tight systems in place, you also require those systems in a democracy or any other system.

> I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Utilitarianism just is the claim that the right action is the one that maximizes utility.

My point is you dont need ot be a utilitarian or even act utilitarian to maximise utility. As you suggested also. BUT our difference is that you keep looking at it from the individual level as if I am trying to convince individuals - the only relevant party that needs to be utilitarian is the state.

> Of course ideas progress. But it's still worth learning from those who have gone before us. Otherwise you are likely to make the same old mistakes that someone refuted centuries ago.

Richard, you obviously didn't read what I said. Maybe you need to calm down a little. The next section explains.

>because he was extremely intelligent and insightful, and had powerful arguments and good ideas.

there are many academics I think were very smart - however I will take a recent author in a good journal over a person who discovered a theory any day of the week. Similarly i would not expect a 200 (for example) years ago world chess champ to do anything but loose like a dog to a very good modern chess player quite possibly including myself. 200 years of collective human learning really starts to add up.

Genius said...

by the way i applaud your discussion of JS Mills on this thread. it is the way you referenced me to him in the other thread that made me make that comment.

Richard said...

Well, you were making unsupported claims about utilitarianism which nobody since Mill would have made. It's not as if modern utilitarians have superseded Mill. Rather, they've built on him. So if you don't know any Mill, then, really, you don't know utilitarianism. It should tell you something that, if you actually look at the "recent authors in good journals", many of them are still discussing Mill and his ideas. We didn't get where we are today by ignoring the ideas of those who went before us.

But I digress. Back to totalitarianism: what reason do you have for thinking that the government will be more likely to make the right decisions for an individual than that individual is themselves?

"If so then a utilitarian government WILL NOT supress it"

If they were omniscient, of course. But the point is that people, and governments, make mistakes. Often. If you encourage them to censor free speech whenever they think it will benefit utility, then chances are they will misuse this power (whether from malice or ignorance), and we will all suffer in result. Given the practical problems, the utilitarian thing to do is to take precautions to prevent the government from acquiring such absolute power.

You have to look at it in terms of "expected utility". It is extremely unlikely that a totalitarian government would successfully do what's best for everyone. It is extremely likely that they would produce an Orwellian dystopia. (I mean, for goodness sake, have you not read 1984?)

Every single totalitarian regime in history has been a nightmare. All of the best regimes have been liberal democracies. Doesn't that tell you something?

Richard said...

(That first sentence should probably read "nobody since before Mill" - I certainly don't mean to imply that Mill himself would have made those claims! Quite the opposite, of course.)

Genius said...

> Well, you were making unsupported claims about utilitarianism

Richard - state the claim and we can debate it. that is much more interesting than trading slurs.

I might be making a claim that Mills might not support but utilitarianism is defined as

" The doctrine that virtue is founded in utility, or that virtue is defined and enforced by its tendency to promote the highest happiness of the universe."

If Mills disagrees with anything that arrises directly from that he defines himself as not being a utilitarian (well not a pure one - few people are pue utilitarians just like few are pure libiterians so I would not be surprised) as opposed to changing the definition of a utilitarian.

Of course this debate over definitions is a bit silly since it deserves no practical implications.

> So if you don't know any Mill, then, really, you don't know utilitarianism.

No offence, but that is truly nonsense, and you should know it. Also, you are misinterpreting what I said, but since I see nothing much worth replying to here, I will proceed on to the main topic.

> what reason do you have for thinking that the government will be more likely to make the right decisions for an individual than that individual is themselves?

Sometimes it will sometimes it won’t. For example the government might pass a law to discourage smoking and that might be the right decision (I think it is). It might pass a law allocating tax money to the poor; it might pass a law allocating money to health services it might pass a law preventing people engaging in certain dangerous acts. Each law should improve utility. Now let’s say that a law against smoking is valid then why not a law against drinking lets say a certain type of vodka?
You add laws where they benefit (total effect) and remove them where they don’t. I personally think the current laws don’t do that very well but let’s say this is done so that the minimum law is marginal law at present.
However, if they DID we could afford to add many more marginal laws s their efficiency improved. ALSO the effectiveness of the laws is in part a function of the information available to the state because as you noted lack of information is one reason why the state can’t make all decisions for individuals (you must already accept it can make decisions regarding health care, smoking, penicillin and so forth). In order to know if utility is improving the state needs to monitor what is happening. There are a HUGE amount of things it can do to gather more information like this. And technology only makes that easier so if it did do that it would be able to pass more laws as marginal laws became productive ones. Not only that but the central decision making authority gets better and better at processing the data it gets.

If the utility calculations are done right it will slowly diverge from other philosophies.

OK time to stop and check… now which part of that do you dispute?

> Then chances are they will misuse this power (whether from malice or ignorance), and we will all suffer in result. Given the practical problems, the utilitarian thing to do is to take precautions to prevent the government from acquiring such absolute power.

Or you could just put systems in place to reduce the likelihood of the chances of misuse of power. One of the simplest examples would be a body with the power to remove the executive that is committed to utilitarianism. I don’t think that would be the end scenario but it is just one of many steps that might be seen as ways to reduce the risk so that more power could be allocated.

> I mean, for goodness sake, have you not read 1984?

Yes I have, and I know who Hitler and Castro are.

 Every single totalitarian regime in history has been a nightmare.

1) Really? I would have to say you are wrong and am rather surprised you can’t see the various glaring examples. By the way it is unfair to compare modern Britain with Cuba and go “hey Britain is better because of democracy” since it was also light years ahead before it had democracy. Having said that I think democracy is generally better than let’s say absolute monarchy with no controls or any of the other really obvious options.
2) Even if it was true that doesn’t undermine my argument anyway since my argument is for a special type of “totalitarianism” and is deductive somewhat as described above

 All of the best regimes have been liberal democracies. Doesn't that tell you something?

I’m unimpressed
1) You are confusing arguments – you were arguing that totalitarian govts tend to go bad. Here you are implying totalitarian govts are bad automatically. Different argument –this one is of course the weaker one which is why you lead with the other one.
2) Some of the worst people in the world were elected (eg Hitler) and democracies have been responsible for some of the worst blunders (e.g. WWI and the seriousness of WWII). So democracy has a pretty average record for stopping bad things happening. I suggest certain types of government that are less democratic might actually reduce the chances of such thing happening – I am sure you can start thinking of measures.

Basically you need the systems in place to control it. I expect democracies probably didn’t function all that well until recent times, now we have systems so they function reasonably well... Reasonably.

Richard said...

Firstly, I should highlight that what I value in "liberal democracy" is the liberalism more than the democracy. (I discuss the distinction here.) A liberal society treats people as if they have rights. As such, it can help avoid many of the worst excesses of corrupted totalitarianism (think gulags, genocide, etc.).

Now, you've suggested we put up various safeguards, so the totalitarian government is not really one of absolute power after all. That's a good start. But it still seems to me that too much state interference in citizen's lives is likely to backfire and have deleterious effects.

The most effective way to advance a person's interests is to educate and inform them. Again, this comes down to the fact that an individual is (1) more motivated to achieve their best interests; and (2) in a better position to know what those interests are.

No matter how much "information gathering" (/spying) the state does, it's implausible to think that it will know more about every citizen than they themselves do. But even if it could become magically omniscient (or close enough for your purposes), why not just share that information with the populace?

You are effectively treating the individual as stupid. But why think that? (To paraphrase your earlier comment, now applied to individuals rather than governments: "why... so eager to assume rampant stupidity?") Especially as technology and education advance, why not think that individuals are well capable of looking after themselves? Why on Earth do you think that an impersonal bureaucracy would make better judgments about how to live a good life than the individual themself? Granted, everyone makes (occasional) mistakes - but so do governments. And the latter tend to be far more serious.

Given the undeniably huge risks posed by totalitarianism, and the comparatively minor benefits that would accrue even in the best-case scenario, why take the risk? It's not a worthwhile gamble.

In other words, even if the State could acquire the necessary information to micromanage people's lives (which I very much doubt), why trust it over the individuals themselves? Who is more likely to (genuinely) look out for your interests - your government, or you?

(3) There is also the Millian point about the value of 'experiments of living' (think hippie communes, alternative family arrangements, etc.). Creativity and exploration of new (unforeseen) possibilities requires freedom. Authoritarianism thus tends towards stagnation. The State cannot plan for what it hasn't thought of. Liberalism is a much more flexible system, open and responsive to new ideas and ways of life.

(4) Some would also place an intrinsic value on autonomy, as a crucial element of the good life (i.e. utility). Paternalism is thus an impediment to well-being. You cannot force people to live good lives, they have to choose it for it to have any real value.

A totalitarian society seems unlikely to provide the sort of environment that is necessary to a flourishing life. It treats people like animals to be herded rather than agents to be gently supported as they find their own way in life.

Ultimately, a life without freedom has little value. Totalitarianism is soul-destroying: I can think of few things I would hate more than living in such an abhorrent society. It really is one of the worst things imaginable. In trying to maximize utility, I fear you would destroy all that is truly of value in this precious world.

(And on that note, I must bid you good night.)

Genius said...

> the totalitarian government is not really one of absolute power after all. That's a good start.

It cant be utilitarian and absolute of course, but I was seeing the safeguard as part of the government in that context.

> The most effective way to advance a person's interests is to educate and inform them.

If you mean like singapore educates and informs its people you may have a point. The interesting thing is that is more or less how a good government would do it. Total control but in such a way the people dont feel very controlled. you can use your information and intelligence advantage to make them do what yo uwant without htem being particularly cognisant of it.

> No matter how much "information gathering" (/spying) the state does, it's implausible to think that it will know more about every citizen than they themselves do.

A) I dont think so - it is not all that hard for a scientist to predict what you will in a certain situation do better than you can given enough experiments. I expect there are millions of experiments proving that, let alone hte fact htat I can predict what some people will do better than they can, particualrly when it comes to things like quitting smoking (generally just where self deception is involved admittedly but Im just one person).

> But even if it could become magically omniscient (or close enough for your purposes), why not just share that information with the populace?

For the same reasons you argued that individuals can't be the utilitarians. they cant handle or understand the calculations properly individually and anyway three goods added together may just equal one good and two stupid sacrifices.

>You are effectively treating the individual as stupid.

cough.. heh well.. I think the average man is surprisingly not intelligent the smartest men are not too bad and hopefully you get them to run the country. In a sense it is unfair to have the two groups competing against eachother.

> Why on Earth do you think that an impersonal bureaucracy would make better judgments about how to live a good life than the individual themself?

It is vastly smarter, can gather much more information and can see the big picture - same arguments as before as you get a view of hte big picture, get smarter or get more information you can make more marginal laws rational.

> Granted, everyone makes (occasional) mistakes - but so do governments. And the latter tend to be far more serious.

Hmm there are probably more murders or accidental killings in the world than deaths from war. So Im not sure about htat on a technical level. But at any rate the job is to create systems that reduce the cances for such mistakes.

>Given the undeniably huge risks posed by totalitarianism, and the comparatively minor benefits that would accrue even in the best-case scenario, why take the risk? It's not a worthwhile gamble.

I think the benefits are HUGE not only that but if doesn't properly the risks are reduced.
one of these that weighs on my mind is the concept that weapons are getting smaller and smaller and more powerful. I can see where that is likely to lead and I am concerned liberal democracy wont be able to deal with it. It almost makes we want to cheer china.

> Who is more likely to (genuinely) look out for your interests - your government, or you?

But the point is not to look after THEIR interests it is to look after EVERYONE's interests. besides this is not just "a government" this is an ideal government.

> Authoritarianism thus tends towards stagnation.

If it has value then an authoritarian utilitarian govt should do it. experiments in living are one such thing that could be included in those calculations. we have all history to look for trends.

> The State cannot plan for what it hasn't thought of.

The state wouldnt jsut "impose a bilion rules" and try to figure out which are wrong - it would slowly roll out rules that statistics indicate would work and withdraw them if they showed evidence of not working.

> It treats people like animals to be herded

I prefered the paternalistic adjective.

>Totalitarianism is soul-destroying

Well agian I expect a state that doesnt crush you it just very closely monitors you and influences you via subtle psychological methods as opposed to blunt force. it doesnt want to destroy your sould so any strategy that does so will need to be rolled back. So the system is its own safe guard in a way.

BUT I personally think this would never lead back to liberal democracy it would always be subtle authoritarianism.

Willo said...

Just read the stuff regarding J.S. Mill's "On Liberty." I have to examine his arguments for freedom of speech as part of my political science unit at first year uni, and I found your overview both concise and helpful. Sad thing is, the more I read of philosophy in general, the more it becomes apparent to me that it can't provide satisfying answers to any of the major, universal questions. It's all vain hypothesising and opinionated rubbish, and, in many instances, is uttered by the pretentious and members of the pseudo-intellectual community. Don't get me wrong - I think philosophy is interesting, and I admire people who have a genuine thirst for knowledge and seek to broaden their scope and understanding of the world around them. However, not wanting to sound like a cynic, but in the end, we will never get any closer to the real truth if we continually follow these "philosophical" tangents stemming from our inferior minds. In the end, we'll be further away from the real truth than we were at the beginning.