tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6642011.post111969259448299050..comments2023-10-29T10:32:36.914-04:00Comments on Philosophy, et cetera: Basic Income for the Economy's SakeRichard Y Chappellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16725218276285291235noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6642011.post-1134206978314312752005-12-10T04:29:00.000-05:002005-12-10T04:29:00.000-05:00On "www.basicincome.be" we find the only working p...On "www.basicincome.be" we find the only working partial UBI for the moment.<BR/><BR/><BR/>ALASKA Citizens Dividend http://www.apfc.org/<BR/>Alaska's Permanent Fund Dividend Program Website http://www.pfd.state.ak.us/<BR/>Each Alaska resident (who has lived in Alaska for at least one year) is considered to be a part owner of the state’s oil resources and receives an annual dividend that was nearly $1600 in 2002. http://www.apfc.org/alaska/dividendprgrm.cfm?s=4<BR/>"Far from reducing work incentives or promoting financial irresponsibility, the Alaska dividend has contributed substantially to job creation in the state and has allowed Alaskans to provide for their educations, health insurance, and retirement.<BR/>" Effects of the "Permanent Fund Dividend" http://www.etes.ucl.ac.be/BIEN/Files/Papers/2002Goldsmith.pdf<BR/><BR/>The Negative Income Tax (and his experiments) are still studied http://www.etes.ucl.ac.be/bien/Files/Papers/2002Widerquist.pdf on http://www.policylibrary.com/redistribution/bibliography.htm<BR/><BR/><BR/>websites: <BR/><BR/>BIEN (Basic Income Earth Network) www.basicincome.org<BR/><BR/>USBIG (United states Basic Income Guarantee) www.usbig.net<BR/><BR/>All the best<BR/>Paul<BR/><BR/>webteam www.vivant.orgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6642011.post-1119699446982931002005-06-25T07:37:00.000-04:002005-06-25T07:37:00.000-04:00argggh his document links don't see to work anymor...argggh <BR/>his document links don't see to work anymore.. oh well...<BR/>that's really a little depressing, hmm someone should keep the links alive <BR/>:\Geniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624496692217466430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6642011.post-1119699044182369102005-06-25T07:30:00.000-04:002005-06-25T07:30:00.000-04:00the relevant post is Tax and Welfare - A Window of...the relevant post is <BR/><BR/>Tax and Welfare - A Window of Opportunity <BR/><BR/>of courseGeniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624496692217466430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6642011.post-1119698888582072312005-06-25T07:28:00.000-04:002005-06-25T07:28:00.000-04:00brenlook on greyshade's (RIP) site for some good i...bren<BR/>look on greyshade's (RIP) site for some good information he was a proponent of this and pursued politicians on it<BR/><BR/>http://greyshade.blogspot.com/Geniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624496692217466430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6642011.post-1119698686325044262005-06-25T07:24:00.000-04:002005-06-25T07:24:00.000-04:00> The UBI is merely a guaranteed income, not a gua...> The UBI is merely a guaranteed income, not a guaranteed positive bank balance. <BR/><BR/>there is a question regarding those individuals in society unable to spend money in their own best interests. <BR/>The argument for supplying food stamps or getting a government department to pay for rent seperatly or somthing along those lines.<BR/><BR/>the problem I see is that I can live fairly happily on a fraction of the unemployment benefit - but many claim to struggle (which could be a bargaining thing, but probably not) - this as far as I can tell means that either <BR/>1) I could tell them what to do and solve the problem<BR/>2) their desires are out of "wack" with their needs probably a result of too much television watching and slick advertising campaigns. (geezz I sound like a grandad)<BR/>3) it is a "poor me" bargaining tactic<BR/><BR/>anyway solving (1) largely solves the problem regardless. Not sure if we are ready for it though.<BR/><BR/>> It can be spent on fines or repaying debts just like any other source of income.<BR/><BR/>Yes but if you allow a lender to be able to claim money back against a universal benefit you must accept that there will potentially be people who will slowly starve to death due to your system (because they may have money deducted from thei UBI before they can spend it on essentials - this relates to the argument above for the food stamp system). This sets off my "utilitarian alert" alarm. <BR/><BR/>>assuming higher GDP really would benefit "the welfare of all".<BR/><BR/>Jst as with anything else if you pursue it with no regard for other needs you will eventually end up sacrificing those needs. GDP is not everything, but it is SOMTHING - in fact it is better than most other measures.Geniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624496692217466430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6642011.post-1119698351558289792005-06-25T07:19:00.000-04:002005-06-25T07:19:00.000-04:00Thanks Bren. I don't know much about the politics ...Thanks Bren. I don't know much about the politics of it, but I don't believe it has ever been tried in its purest (i.e. unconditional) form.<BR/><BR/>Also, I should point out that the UBI is subtly different from a negative tax, for the former is provided unconditionally to everybody, without regard for how much (else) they earn. The two systems can be tweaked to yield identical results in theory, but in practice the UBI is much simpler and less open to manipulation. (Or so I've heard -- I don't know much about negative tax though.)Richard Y Chappellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16725218276285291235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6642011.post-1119696494492293632005-06-25T06:48:00.000-04:002005-06-25T06:48:00.000-04:00Yup, those were the sorts of issues discussed in m...Yup, those were the sorts of issues discussed in my introductory post.Richard Y Chappellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16725218276285291235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6642011.post-1119696284254022642005-06-25T06:44:00.001-04:002005-06-25T06:44:00.001-04:00of course all that is being a bit devils advocate....of course all that is being a bit devils advocate.<BR/>I think the gains are<BR/>1) Incentives to work no matter what income you are on (solves the problem of "abatement") <BR/>2)makes it easy to understand and reduces chances of people falling through cracks or abusing system.<BR/>3) related to 2 - fairly easy to administer<BR/>4) fairer for savers vs spenders (who would be penalized in many other systems)<BR/><BR/>and so forthGeniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624496692217466430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6642011.post-1119696283307652682005-06-25T06:44:00.000-04:002005-06-25T06:44:00.000-04:00The UBI is merely a guaranteed income, not a guara...The UBI is merely a guaranteed <I>income</I>, not a guaranteed positive bank balance. It can be spent on fines or repaying debts just like any other source of income.<BR/><BR/>But your first point is right, assuming higher GDP really would benefit "the welfare of all".Richard Y Chappellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16725218276285291235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6642011.post-1119695799226817742005-06-25T06:36:00.000-04:002005-06-25T06:36:00.000-04:00> Treats people as a means only, which is repugnan...> Treats people as a means only, which is repugnant.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure this argument makes any sense in these context since the end is (by implication) the welfare of all (for example higher GDP, all else being equal) where if everyone under a UB system decided not to work then everyone would die (of course that isn't likely but it is the opposite position).<BR/><BR/>the argument that it actually lowers welfare of all by lowering the weak without significantly raising the powerful is a stronger argument. It is hard to see how a slave owner could benefit so much by slavery and slavery alone to justify enslaving someone. <BR/><BR/>> Firstly, it would serve to foster a more flexible economy. <BR/><BR/>Flexible economies are good for competing with others but actually quite bad for human psychology. Most humans particularly those in the lower end of the socioeconomic scale would prefer to have a single career over most of their life. <BR/><BR/>In addition in my experience regardless of their bargaining power people will permit employers abusing them. For example a High ranking manager might work 14 hr days to impress the CEO this could be coinsidered abuse but it is unlikely he will complain and in extreme cases these people may work themselves to death. It is probably a similar problem of "miscalculation" going on with low income employees if anything I think this may be a lesser issue for the poor.<BR/><BR/>> [I]t seems safe to predict that these trends will persist, and hence that it will become increasingly difficult to make sure that whoever is responsible for wealth destruction/creation actually pays/is paid for the damage/benefit caused.<BR/><BR/>One problem on the paying side is htat that you cant get a person to pay more than they can afford. So a person on a UBI cannot be penalized properly for their actions (any actions at all really) unles the UBI ceases to really be Universal.Geniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624496692217466430noreply@blogger.com