Comments on Philosophy, et cetera: Dogville on Punishment

"On the other hand, the criminal facing punishment...

2008-07-18T05:52:40.242-04:00

"On the other hand, the criminal facing punishment probably doesn't appreciate the respect we thereby show him."
"I don't know, perhaps the criminal can appreciate the respect shown by holding him/her responsible. The exhibition of such appreciation may be unusual, but there are possible explanations of this fact. Maybe this is because we live in a culture which propagates the value of pursuing what satisfies one's short-term interests (i.e. it is more comfortable for me not to face up to my crime)."

In response to this, I would like to point out something. While I have never been a convicted or even suspected criminal IRL, I have wound up in trouble and punished on multiple occasions (excluding school and parental instances). I have, in the past, actually waited to apologize and explain things until AFTER I was through with whatever punishment(s) in certain situations. The reason behind this was that I did not want to be treated differently due to whatever "caused" my actions. Though at the time I didn't recognize it as this, but in a way I DID want to be held fully accountable for my actions - even though situations, emotions, etc. may well have impaired my judgment.

This being said, though it is uncommon to see proof of, I believe it is not only possible for criminals to appreciate that respect but that it has already happened.

Dogville is a great movie, especially because of t...

2008-05-23T13:49:10.257-04:00

Dogville is a great movie, especially because of this scene. Yes please, respect enough to hold me accountable for my actions.

Yeah, that's an interesting thought.

2008-05-22T15:25:46.354-04:00

Yeah, that's an interesting thought.

This is a great quote. I wonder if there isn't ano...

2008-05-21T21:22:27.844-04:00

This is a great quote. I wonder if there isn't another idea built into it--not just that holding others responsible involves respect, but also the first-personal nature of responsibility: the importance of holding others to the standards to which you hold yourself. The point of punishment, on that view, would be to train people to do the same, to become responsible animals who can hold themselves to high standards.

I guess I do think there is something reprehensibl...

2008-05-21T18:14:09.095-04:00

I guess I do think there is something reprehensible about lying to the inquiring murderer. What can I say, I've got pretty robust Kantian intuitions :)

You are right about difference between denial and non-cooperation, but I guess what I was pointing to with the hostage negotiator is that he/she is lying. That's worse than just refusing to cooperate with the hostage taker.

Colin -- that's interesting. Do you also think it'...

2008-05-21T16:48:27.422-04:00

Colin -- that's interesting. Do you also think it's reprehensible to lie to the inquiring murderer? (I don't think I've ever before heard anyone come so close to endorsing Kant's view here!)

For what it's worth, I'm more inclined to think that the hostage taker has given up their right to have their agency (freedom, promises, etc.) "respected" in your sense. Bad agents should instead be thwarted in their pursuit of bad ends. This is not in any way to deny their agency, I don't think, but simply to refuse to co-operate with it the way we would for non-criminal agents with legitimate ends. So, it seems a different kind of non-respect from that discussed in my post; would you agree?

I don't know, perhaps the criminal can appreciate ...

2008-05-21T16:36:09.923-04:00

I don't know, perhaps the criminal can appreciate the respect shown by holding him/her responsible. The exhibition of such appreciation may be unusual, but there are possible explanations of this fact. Maybe this is because we live in a culture which propagates the value of pursuing what satisfies one's short-term interests (i.e. it is more comfortable for me not to face up to my crime).

A related thought: I've always found the following type of fictional scenario morally reprehensible in some respect. The hostage negotiator convinces the hostage taker that he/she will get a bus or plane or money etc. The negotiator is lying and when the opportunity arises, reneges on his/her deal to capture the hostage taker. All things considered this is probably the best course of action, but the negotiator is blatantly failing to respect the agency of the hostage taker. That is at least a bit reprehensible, no?