Comments on Philosophy, et cetera: Making Suicide an Option

Have you ever seen someone reject a definitely, 10...

2009-10-12T00:33:17.518-04:00

Have you ever seen someone reject a definitely, 100% life-saving measure as too expensive? Specifically, for someone else's life?

"But it would be callous to implicitly deny treatment to more people who stand to gain decades more healthy life from successful treatment."

Yes, that is what I was trying to bring to mind. (It worked. Yay!)

"universal sympathy entails utilitarianism."

I'm inclined to turn it around. Utilitarianism is universal sympathy, as opposed to a moral framework, and instead is something to pursue within a moral framework.

That Guy Montag,

Rob's link above to Imamura's film addresses at least one permutation. Specifically the line, "At the top of the mountain, hundreds of skeletons and hungry black crows wait for the next arrivals as the resigned grandmother and one grieving son make the final ascent together, the woman strapped to her son's back."

Coming as someone who doesn't know that much about...

2009-10-11T15:27:27.854-04:00

Coming as someone who doesn't know that much about the Inuit culture, I might ask the question as to what the common attitudes are towards discussing death? Is this tradition of the elderly choosing to die spoken of openly, is it part of the mythology or does it happen often enough it's just an open fact of the culture? I guess the reason I'm asking is because this draws parallels with admittedly anecdotal accounts of difference in attitudes to death between atheists and the religious.

It might just be part of the happy folklore that atheists tend to be less afraid of death, but it seems plausible that not having the chance to wish for a life after death forces you to think about it and once you've had a chance to think about it in that way, it tends not to be as scary.

A similar process may form part of the Inuit experience and get us out of the problems Velleman proposes; a healthy attitude is to confront this particular problem more broadly in the culture and preferably before a person becomes terminal.

I referenced the desires of "loving families" as p...

2009-10-11T15:14:43.466-04:00

I referenced the desires of "loving families" as providing a clue about how to evaluate outcomes. Obviously the preferences of the unscrupulous offer no such moral guidance, so aren't relevant in that context.

No loving family could possibly want Grandma to d...

2009-10-11T14:36:15.875-04:00

No loving family could possibly want Grandma to die before she was ready, just to save a few lousy bucks.

Well, not all families are loving. Family members often desire that an sick elderly person to perish, to relieve medical costs, or to get at her inheritance, etc. Unscrupulous or "golddigging" relatives might assist in their granny's death, unless there was written consent or laws to the contrary, or when they could get away with it. Again, hypotheticals without much context, uh, sir. "Pulling the plug" does happen, even in the USA, more frequently than many realize--usually with po' folks, or some elderly person with no relatives around. The problem is creating policies and laws which prevent unscrupulous doctors and nurses from eliminating a sick or old person's autonomy, and playing God, more or less.

Hmm, I doubt that anyone really assigns 'infinite'...

2009-10-11T11:55:06.518-04:00

Hmm, I doubt that anyone really assigns 'infinite' value to anything. We always have to make tradeoffs, and it's not as though anyone's willing to sacrifice everything else for the slightest chance at decreasing the risk of premature death.

In case of euthanasia, we need to weigh these costs against the benefits of increased autonomy and dignity for those who do welcome greater control over their end-of-life. Not to mention the public health savings that may enable us to invest in saving more lives of those with curable illnesses (who might themselves die prematurely otherwise). It may "sound" callous to say such things. But it would be callous to implicitly deny treatment to more people who stand to gain decades more healthy life from successful treatment. Or so I'm inclined to think: universal sympathy entails utilitarianism.

Ah, I see what you're saying now. Still, given t...

2009-10-11T02:51:37.249-04:00

Ah, I see what you're saying now.

Still, given the group normally referred to by 'we' assigns infinite negative value to a life lost prematurely, (in this case, without consent) then the fact that less loving and less responsible families exist is enough by itself to prove that euthanasia should be illegal.

It's easier for me as I don't think life is priceless...but it certainly sounds utterly callous to say that out loud, don't you think?

I've always admired that story about Inuit culture. Buffered as it likely would be by genuine respect for the elderly and deep, deep community ties, it almost certainly would allow those who wanted to live to continue.

I understand many elderly people come to harmoniously accept their impending death. The Inuit tradition would allow them to not only accept it, but to take control of it.

Related to your Eskimo example, an outstanding fil...

2009-10-10T21:15:18.239-04:00

Related to your Eskimo example, an outstanding film by the great Imamura.

Oh, I didn't mean that they wouldn't have any (pro...

2009-10-10T19:51:00.468-04:00

Oh, I didn't mean that they wouldn't have any (pro tanto) desire for grandma to commit premature suicide -- only that they couldn't really want this outcome all things considered. To care deeply about someone entails caring deeply that they don't unnecessarily die before they're ready (and especially not for some relatively 'cheap' seeming benefit to oneself).

So, if this attitude accurately reflects the relative weightings of the values involved, then even consequentialists (who think it would have been best if the patient were to happily consent to euthanasia) would not want the patient to feel morally pressured into consent. It would no longer be right (value-maximizing) thing to do, if done from the wrong motives.

The upshot of all this is that -- contrary to initial appearances -- Velleman's argument doesn't really depend on the assumption that the care-dependent life is perfectly justifiable, after all. For consequentialists may reject that assumption, and think that the patient ought not to want to cling to life. And yet, they may agree with Velleman that it'd be unfortunate if this patient who (unreasonably) wants to live were to feel pressured into death.

P.S. I agree that it's much preferable to avoid these worries by buying appropriate insurance in advance. But people aren't always so responsible, so it's still worth asking about the non-ideal case.

His hidden assumption about most people not agreei...

2009-10-10T18:01:47.900-04:00

His hidden assumption about most people not agreeing seems pretty reasonable.

I would expect desire or need for money to pressure people into pressuring grandma, and everyone gets to lose, at least sometimes.

"No loving family?" I'm quite capable of harbouring the desire to save money AND grandma simultaneously. Indeed, a decent working definition of 'saint' would be someone who isn't so capable. I would not act on the money part, but that doesn't make the temptation go away, nor does it obliterate the possibility that grandma will think of it all by herself and try to do 'the right thing.'

On the other hand you can take the argument further. Knowing ahead of time that if you want to live on life support, you're gonna have to pay for it, allows both the social and personal financial-moral issues to be brought up and resolved in advance.

Long term care insurance already exists, which means that part at least is a simple matter of going down to the broker and thinking, "Hmm, is my possible future life worth that much money?" I find that most people can make this decision decisively, even if not always accurately.